Just installed a FB3 to use with my ProPortioner. So far it seems a lot stronger than the VersaJet I've been using. Sprays great. Cycles more often than the VersaJet.
Go with a bigger tip. Mine cycles with a 3 and not a 4. May just be air and it will go away like mine did
Bryan P said
Apr 10, 2017
Art O wrote:
Bryan P wrote:
Just installed a FB3 to use with my ProPortioner. So far it seems a lot stronger than the VersaJet I've been using. Sprays great. Cycles more often than the VersaJet.
Go with a bigger tip. Mine cycles with a 3 and not a 4. May just be air and it will go away like mine did
Thanks. I had a J-rod with 20's with the old pump, but I've got the same thing set up with 30's. I'll try it tomorrow.
Art O said
Apr 10, 2017
Bryan P wrote:
Art O wrote:
Bryan P wrote:
Just installed a FB3 to use with my ProPortioner. So far it seems a lot stronger than the VersaJet I've been using. Sprays great. Cycles more often than the VersaJet.
Go with a bigger tip. Mine cycles with a 3 and not a 4. May just be air and it will go away like mine did
Thanks. I had a J-rod with 20's with the old pump, but I've got the same thing set up with 30's. I'll try it tomorrow.
Your putting out 7 GPM and 100 PSI so you have to account for that. On the walkers I have been using the Black PW tip and Its been working out good
-- Edited by Art O on Monday 10th of April 2017 07:45:46 PM
Bryan P said
Apr 10, 2017
Art O wrote:
Your putting out 7 GPM and 100 PSI so you have to account for that. On the walkers I have been using the Black PW tip and Its been working out good
That's a good idea using the black tip. I can see how that would work. I'm going from 6gpm and 70psi so it's a good little jump in power.
Jeff Wible said
Apr 11, 2017
Just a note: Not sure how the Fat Boys are rated,..but some of the 12V will state: GPM and PSI in whatever numbers. But lets say with the Fat Boy,...7 GPM and 100 PSI. If you look at the GPM/PSI curve on the spec sheet,..I think you'll likely see that it is a variable GPM/PSI.
It may put out 7 GPM,.but not at 100 PSI,..probably more like 10 PSI. The more PSI you run,.the less GPM you have.
Here is a chart for a Remco Fat Boy that shows a chart,..It's likely the same as the Delavan Fat Boy's specs.
I installed a new fat boy this year
I only use them to transfer Chemical. Seems to be pumping great
Bryan P said
Jun 13, 2017
Update. Two months to the day and the FB3 is dead.
Admin said
Jun 13, 2017
Mine is still cranking. I think the trick is to make sure its not cycling all the time.
Zach Maynard said
Jun 13, 2017
I've been using the Versajet from the Powerwash store and it's going strong all season and still looks brand new, granted it's kept in a compartment in my service body.
Diamond Roof Cleaning said
Jun 13, 2017
my booster pumps are rockin and rolling. i only use the 12volts for transfer.
Bryan P said
Jun 13, 2017
I just paid enough for two versajets and overnight shipping that I could have bought a booster. But I've got 24 hours to get the truck going again. Thankful I wasn't cleaning roofs and that I know how to downstream as a backup.
Jeff Wible said
Jun 13, 2017
DS'ing as a backup for house washing? This soft wash thing had been taken ridiculously too far. Direct application and rinsing with ultra low PSI is going backward in advancement for house washing I'd put my force fed 10 GPM PW up against any other application for house washing,..it will blow any of the boosters or 12V away. Not even close. Someone tell me what the performance advantage of a booster pump or 12V is over a properly equipped PW with a soap injector. Even a smaller GPM PW is better than those 120 PSI pumps.
*Wait and see,.there will not be one performance advantage,.just preference reasons ,.like the good ole' "Soft wash cause" Or the ole' The customer was soooooo glad I didn't have a PW, Ha, Ha,...And they are likely the same customer that was soooo glad you didn't use a ladder. That is from another forum years ago.
Jeff
-- Edited by Jeff Wible on Tuesday 13th of June 2017 06:20:54 PM
Bryan P said
Jun 13, 2017
Jeff Wible wrote:
DS'ing as a backup for house washing? This soft wash thing had been taken ridiculously too far. Direct application and rinsing with ultra low PSI is going backward in advancement for house washing I'd put my force fed 10 GPM PW up against any other application for house washing,..it will blow any of the boosters or 12V away. Not even close. Someone tell me what the performance advantage of a booster pump or 12V is over a properly equipped PW with a soap injector. Even a smaller GPM PW is better than those 120 PSI pumps.
*Wait and see,.there will not be one performance advantage,.just preference reasons ,.like the good ole' "Soft wash cause" Or the ole' The customer was soooooo glad I didn't have a PW, Ha, Ha,...And they are likely the same customer that was soooo glad you didn't use a ladder. That is from another forum years ago.
Hey Jeff. This takes us a bit off topic, but since you're calling me out I'll respond. I like downstreaming. It's faster and sometimes I think it does a better job, especially when we have high stuff. I really like the remote you built for me and when I'm working alone, I almost always use it. But the proportioner makes direct application a lot more practical in my situation. I fill three tanks and go...and because I clean more roofs than anything, using the same equipment just makes it more efficient. Today I was doing houses and concrete, so downstreaming was the perfect process. If more of my days were like today I would downstream. I don't have a booster pump so I can't answer your question about the advantage, but for my 12v+proportioner, the advantage for me is that I can clean with any mix with the turn of a dial and move from roof to siding, to stucco, to pretreating concrete seamlessly.
Jeff Wible said
Jun 14, 2017
Hey Bryan,.that's a nice cordial rebuttal,..and more importantly it works for you and you are comfortable with your process.
*And I'm glad to hear the remote unit is working well for you. One of the best advancements in houses washing in a long time,...wasn't my idea,..but either way,..it has greatly improved speed and effort when down streaming.
Jeff
-- Edited by Jeff Wible on Wednesday 14th of June 2017 05:48:05 AM
Jason Watkins said
Jun 14, 2017
As someone new to this, without a ton of experience on either method, and who is at a point where i am trying to decide which way to go, heres my take on it.
It seems that most everyone agrees that downstreaming is faster than 12V's, but the disagreement is just how big of a deal that difference is. As Bryan noted, the new automatic mixing technologies (proportioners, blend modules) narrow that gap... DS may apply and rinse faster, but you lose time preparing tank mixes, and adjusting them if needed.
When i first thought about going into business, i was gung ho on pushing the 12V softwash angle, but after i read all the 'DS vs SW' threads online, i started leaning more towards DS... now with a little experience i am leaning back towards the 12V side. Part of that is because i often run into homeowners who ask me to confirm that i wont be damaging their property with too much pressure... sometimes multiple times throughout the same conversation.
It seems to me that if you had two exterior cleaning companies, one that DS's with pressure washers, and one that uses 12V's, and if they both had glowing reviews, that the public would tend toward the company that promotes the 12V softwash method. No way to prove that, i suppose, but that's just how it seems to me.
So to me, one of the biggest advantages of 12V is public perception. Another factor that can set you apart from the competition, if needed.
After that, while it isn't a critical factor, i think the noise aspect is a valid (but minor) difference ... both to the customer and the operator. I like being able to talk to the customer, or my helper, without shouting. For instance, last week i was about 25 ft away from my helper, and when i finally yelled loud enough to get her attention, i yelled and motioned for her to move the DS dropstick from the soap to the water tank... then I watched her promptly walk over to the engine to turn the throttle down, all while i was trying to get her attention to stop... haha.
In the end, both methods have pros and cons. As Bryan discussed, having both methods available is probably the best approach, as the situation usually dictates which would be best. However, if you wanted to market your company as strictly 12V (at least for houses/buildings/roofs, and when possible on concrete/wood), then i suppose you have to be willing to give up the DS option, which may have a negative impact on certain jobs.
Right now im liking the idea of a booster pump plus one of the automatic mixers. No experience with booster pumps, but i am just starting to research them, and they look useful.
Again, im not an expert and some of my points may be way off base, and/or my opinion may change as time goes on... this is just my personal take on it at this time.
Jeff Wible said
Jun 14, 2017
Hey Jason,..A properly equipped PW will blow away anything else when it comes to house washing,..everything else is simply preference. Which I'm not sure why the preferred method would be slower and more work??? There really is no comparison,..I've done it both ways,... But performance and speed and ease is hands down downstreaming. You can cut it how you like,..but a 12V or a booster aren't even in the same category as 10 GPM force fed remote controlled soap injected unit.
The proportioner is a great idea,.and I use it with my roof rig,..but for house washing,..anyone thinking anything else is comparable is just kidding themselves. Seriously,...I don't care how you or anyone washes,. and you seem to be buying into the "latest and greatest" idea,....Which will someday be chalked up to learning experience,..
* Public perception about noise is a moot point,.Customers understand the idea of equipment being used. And an engine running and you communicating with employees is well worth the advantage of being properly rigged for the task at hand. Form follows function.
**Preparing a tank of DS mix is simple 12.5% and soap. No mixing secrets there.
***I have as many options for applying soap and rinsing as anyone here,..and I prefer DS'ing houses and concrete and decks,... hands down over direct application.
Jeff
Zach Maynard said
Jun 14, 2017
I will disagree on a 1 point Jeff. I totally agree with what you are saying but there are cases where downstreaming isn't better in my opinion. Basically any instance where you need a stronger mix, stucco or eifs for example. You will have to hit it multiple times if you are downstreaming vs. a roof pump you could just hit it rinse. (thats all I got!)
Art O said
Jun 14, 2017
I D/S myself, Way less Bleach!
Jeff Wible said
Jun 14, 2017
Yea,..Zach,...I won't argue with you there,...stucco and dryvit are a different animal. And when I run into those surfaces I will use the air pump to apply a direct solution. I haven't run into stucco or dryvit yet with the force fed system,.but I think it may work? I will let the board know when I do.
We don't have much of those surfaces here in my part of Pa. So,.I would concede the point if that's predominantly what someone cleans.
Jeff
Zach Maynard said
Jun 14, 2017
I don't either, I just wanted to be right about something for the first time all day. lol
You must love that 10 gpm machine, I'm in the market for a 5.5 and can't imagine the flow that puts out!
Jeff Wible said
Jun 14, 2017
Seriously Zach,..I wish I had done it years ago. I ran 8 GPM last season,..and didn't realize you could flow 10 GPM through 200 of 3/8" hose until recently. (Last Fall/Winter) So,.I had to go the next step up. The difference between 10 and 8 isn't huge,..but it is noticeable,..and in my opinion makes an 8 GPM obsolete,,...because the price difference is negligible. The beauty of the larger GPM is,..you don't have to run full flow,..just throttle down. But man,..when you need it for running a surface cleaner or rinsing concrete,.the full flow is nice to have.
*Force feeding the soap injector overcomes the dilution rate of the high GPM machines. And it's really simple.
@Art,..yea,..I knew you were a smart and practical guy,...
JEFF
Jeff Wible said
Jun 14, 2017
Just a note,..I am a fan of "soft washing",..I have done it since before it was an actual term. The difference seems to be what is perceived as soft washing. To me soft washing is a soap nozzle out of a PW,..that is about 600-800 PSI,....and some here may think that's being irresponsible. Mostly by those running less than 150 PSI. To each his own I guess.
Jeff
Bryan P said
Jun 14, 2017
Here was the problem with the FB3. Bolts sheared through and the head fell off. I'm gonna try to exercise the 2 year warranty.
Here was the problem with the FB3. Bolts sheared through and the head fell off. I'm gonna try to exercise the 2 year warranty.
I've heard of the bolts backing out, but never shearing off like that. I would call Delavan and talk to them. They should replace it for you
Jason Watkins said
Jun 14, 2017
Hey Jeff, yes those are good points. I wouldn't necessarily say that i am buying into a gimmick, because like i said, everyone seems to agree that downstreaming is the faster way to wash a house. There's really no argument there, that i can see from anyone. The biggest issue to me, is whether a marketing advantage exists. In other words, can i sell more jobs by using a 12V, and will it be worth the difference in speed?
Also, my comment about public perception wasn't about noise, it was about the public perception of cleaning a house with a pressure washer versus a 12V, in regards to property damage.
The noise thing is minor issue, but a nearly silent pump is always going to be preferable to a gas engine, as far as noise fatique/annoyance goes. And while it is a non-issue to you, it might not be for others... so i think it's fair territory when discussing pros/cons. People often pay a premium for less noisy stuff, like bathroom fans... which never made sense to me... i want the ones that sound like a Boeing 747 warming up, hah.
Are the pros of a 12V worth the cons? I personally dont know, i guess i will find out when i start using my 12V to housewash. I do think there is value in being able to differentiate yourself from the competition, even at the cost of a little time here and there... but obviously there is a point where it financially isn't worth it, if it drags production down too much.
Again, I dont have near the experience as anyone else here, so i may have a different outlook in time. Also i am generally a pretty big dummy, so factor that in to what i have said as well.
Jeff Wible said
Jun 15, 2017
Jason,..as I said,..I don't care how you or anyone cleans,..I'm not the one having to be there dealing with low output pumps,. trying to remove debris from the side of a house,... peckering around with 150 PSI would be a PITA,..especially when dealing with two story homes. I am part of this forum,..and express my views from experience. People can take it or leave it,...
Customers are not as astute to our tools as you think,..that is a point that has been over blown,..customers and the general public just don't care,..because first and foremost they simply want a clean "whatever" The other side of the perception argument could be: "People kind of expect a guy with a PW to wash their property",.In 21 years I have never been asked if I use a PW..it's just assumed as so,..so it's never lost me work. But again,.with that said,....form follows function,...I'm not interested in messing around with inferior tools to appease a customer who doesn't care anyhow. I know people advertise soft washing,.but the customer has no idea of the tools used to achieve,..and they likely don't even care about the term soft wash,...people on this forum care more about it than the general public.
Down streaming is not just faster in application and rinsing,..but it's also easier when utilized to it's fullest. A single man operation can change from soap to water without moving your feet. High GPM machines,....especially during breezy conditions has some nice breeze busting power,..8-10 GPM @600 PSI and takes away alot of ladder work.
I've mentioned it in the past,.and some may do it and some may not,....but if you want to build a clientele,..and set yourself apart,..using inferior,..inefficient methods isn't the way to do it.
*I never said the ultra soft wash methods are a gimmick,...because by default "gimmicks" typically don't work,.I never said using these low PSI pumps doesn't work. They work well at achieving the same results.
You may prefer to use the 12V and don't mind the downfalls,..that is your business.
Jeff
BlueRidge said
Jun 15, 2017
Bryan P wrote:
Here was the problem with the FB3. Bolts sheared through and the head fell off. I'm gonna try to exercise the 2 year warranty.
I thought it was head screws when we spoke but as Art said, I've had them backing out but never break. PWMall put in a warranty request for me last year and told me to return the pump but if it had bleach in it they wouldn't replace it. As I was "repairing" the pump for return a new one showed up. I never returned it and was never asked to again.
Art O said
Jun 15, 2017
I spoke to Delavan last year and he said Bleach was OK for the pumps. The bolts shearing off like that has nothing to do with Bleach. More like they are using cheap or defective bolts
Jeff Wible said
Jun 15, 2017
Does Loctite and lock washers help this at all? I would think if the bolts would remain tight the effects of the vibration wouldn't be so bad? Is it possible to run a longer bolt all the way through and put a nut on it,..with Loctite and lock washers?
Jeff
Admin said
Jun 20, 2017
Bryan P wrote:
Here was the problem with the FB3. Bolts sheared through and the head fell off. I'm gonna try to exercise the 2 year warranty.
So how did you make out with the pump Bryan. Did they replace it?
Go with a bigger tip. Mine cycles with a 3 and not a 4. May just be air and it will go away like mine did
Thanks. I had a J-rod with 20's with the old pump, but I've got the same thing set up with 30's. I'll try it tomorrow.
Your putting out 7 GPM and 100 PSI so you have to account for that. On the walkers I have been using the Black PW tip and Its been working out good
-- Edited by Art O on Monday 10th of April 2017 07:45:46 PM
That's a good idea using the black tip. I can see how that would work. I'm going from 6gpm and 70psi so it's a good little jump in power.
Just a note: Not sure how the Fat Boys are rated,..but some of the 12V will state: GPM and PSI in whatever numbers. But lets say with the Fat Boy,...7 GPM and 100 PSI. If you look at the GPM/PSI curve on the spec sheet,..I think you'll likely see that it is a variable GPM/PSI.
It may put out 7 GPM,.but not at 100 PSI,..probably more like 10 PSI. The more PSI you run,.the less GPM you have.
Here is a chart for a Remco Fat Boy that shows a chart,..It's likely the same as the Delavan Fat Boy's specs.
http://www.remcoindustries.com/Industrial/product.php?f=FatBoy.php
Jeff
I only use them to transfer Chemical. Seems to be pumping great
DS'ing as a backup for house washing? This soft wash thing had been taken ridiculously too far. Direct application and rinsing with ultra low PSI is going backward in advancement for house washing I'd put my force fed 10 GPM PW up against any other application for house washing,..it will blow any of the boosters or 12V away. Not even close. Someone tell me what the performance advantage of a booster pump or 12V is over a properly equipped PW with a soap injector. Even a smaller GPM PW is better than those 120 PSI pumps.
*Wait and see,.there will not be one performance advantage,.just preference reasons ,.like the good ole' "Soft wash cause" Or the ole' The customer was soooooo glad I didn't have a PW, Ha, Ha,...And they are likely the same customer that was soooo glad you didn't use a ladder. That is from another forum years ago.
Jeff
-- Edited by Jeff Wible on Tuesday 13th of June 2017 06:20:54 PM
Hey Jeff. This takes us a bit off topic, but since you're calling me out I'll respond. I like downstreaming. It's faster and sometimes I think it does a better job, especially when we have high stuff. I really like the remote you built for me and when I'm working alone, I almost always use it. But the proportioner makes direct application a lot more practical in my situation. I fill three tanks and go...and because I clean more roofs than anything, using the same equipment just makes it more efficient. Today I was doing houses and concrete, so downstreaming was the perfect process. If more of my days were like today I would downstream. I don't have a booster pump so I can't answer your question about the advantage, but for my 12v+proportioner, the advantage for me is that I can clean with any mix with the turn of a dial and move from roof to siding, to stucco, to pretreating concrete seamlessly.
Hey Bryan,.that's a nice cordial rebuttal,..and more importantly it works for you and you are comfortable with your process.
*And I'm glad to hear the remote unit is working well for you. One of the best advancements in houses washing in a long time,...wasn't my idea,..but either way,..it has greatly improved speed and effort when down streaming.
Jeff
-- Edited by Jeff Wible on Wednesday 14th of June 2017 05:48:05 AM
As someone new to this, without a ton of experience on either method, and who is at a point where i am trying to decide which way to go, heres my take on it.
It seems that most everyone agrees that downstreaming is faster than 12V's, but the disagreement is just how big of a deal that difference is. As Bryan noted, the new automatic mixing technologies (proportioners, blend modules) narrow that gap... DS may apply and rinse faster, but you lose time preparing tank mixes, and adjusting them if needed.
When i first thought about going into business, i was gung ho on pushing the 12V softwash angle, but after i read all the 'DS vs SW' threads online, i started leaning more towards DS... now with a little experience i am leaning back towards the 12V side. Part of that is because i often run into homeowners who ask me to confirm that i wont be damaging their property with too much pressure... sometimes multiple times throughout the same conversation.
It seems to me that if you had two exterior cleaning companies, one that DS's with pressure washers, and one that uses 12V's, and if they both had glowing reviews, that the public would tend toward the company that promotes the 12V softwash method. No way to prove that, i suppose, but that's just how it seems to me.
So to me, one of the biggest advantages of 12V is public perception. Another factor that can set you apart from the competition, if needed.
After that, while it isn't a critical factor, i think the noise aspect is a valid (but minor) difference ... both to the customer and the operator. I like being able to talk to the customer, or my helper, without shouting. For instance, last week i was about 25 ft away from my helper, and when i finally yelled loud enough to get her attention, i yelled and motioned for her to move the DS dropstick from the soap to the water tank... then I watched her promptly walk over to the engine to turn the throttle down, all while i was trying to get her attention to stop... haha.
In the end, both methods have pros and cons. As Bryan discussed, having both methods available is probably the best approach, as the situation usually dictates which would be best. However, if you wanted to market your company as strictly 12V (at least for houses/buildings/roofs, and when possible on concrete/wood), then i suppose you have to be willing to give up the DS option, which may have a negative impact on certain jobs.
Right now im liking the idea of a booster pump plus one of the automatic mixers. No experience with booster pumps, but i am just starting to research them, and they look useful.
Again, im not an expert and some of my points may be way off base, and/or my opinion may change as time goes on... this is just my personal take on it at this time.
The proportioner is a great idea,.and I use it with my roof rig,..but for house washing,..anyone thinking anything else is comparable is just kidding themselves. Seriously,...I don't care how you or anyone washes,. and you seem to be buying into the "latest and greatest" idea,....Which will someday be chalked up to learning experience,..
* Public perception about noise is a moot point,.Customers understand the idea of equipment being used. And an engine running and you communicating with employees is well worth the advantage of being properly rigged for the task at hand. Form follows function.
**Preparing a tank of DS mix is simple 12.5% and soap. No mixing secrets there.
***I have as many options for applying soap and rinsing as anyone here,..and I prefer DS'ing houses and concrete and decks,... hands down over direct application.
Jeff
We don't have much of those surfaces here in my part of Pa. So,.I would concede the point if that's predominantly what someone cleans.
Jeff
You must love that 10 gpm machine, I'm in the market for a 5.5 and can't imagine the flow that puts out!
*Force feeding the soap injector overcomes the dilution rate of the high GPM machines. And it's really simple.
@Art,..yea,..I knew you were a smart and practical guy,...
JEFF
Jeff
Here was the problem with the FB3. Bolts sheared through and the head fell off. I'm gonna try to exercise the 2 year warranty.
I've heard of the bolts backing out, but never shearing off like that. I would call Delavan and talk to them. They should replace it for you
Hey Jeff, yes those are good points. I wouldn't necessarily say that i am buying into a gimmick, because like i said, everyone seems to agree that downstreaming is the faster way to wash a house. There's really no argument there, that i can see from anyone. The biggest issue to me, is whether a marketing advantage exists. In other words, can i sell more jobs by using a 12V, and will it be worth the difference in speed?
Also, my comment about public perception wasn't about noise, it was about the public perception of cleaning a house with a pressure washer versus a 12V, in regards to property damage.
The noise thing is minor issue, but a nearly silent pump is always going to be preferable to a gas engine, as far as noise fatique/annoyance goes. And while it is a non-issue to you, it might not be for others... so i think it's fair territory when discussing pros/cons. People often pay a premium for less noisy stuff, like bathroom fans... which never made sense to me... i want the ones that sound like a Boeing 747 warming up, hah.
Are the pros of a 12V worth the cons? I personally dont know, i guess i will find out when i start using my 12V to housewash. I do think there is value in being able to differentiate yourself from the competition, even at the cost of a little time here and there... but obviously there is a point where it financially isn't worth it, if it drags production down too much.
Again, I dont have near the experience as anyone else here, so i may have a different outlook in time. Also i am generally a pretty big dummy, so factor that in to what i have said as well.
Customers are not as astute to our tools as you think,..that is a point that has been over blown,..customers and the general public just don't care,..because first and foremost they simply want a clean "whatever" The other side of the perception argument could be: "People kind of expect a guy with a PW to wash their property",.In 21 years I have never been asked if I use a PW..it's just assumed as so,..so it's never lost me work. But again,.with that said,....form follows function,...I'm not interested in messing around with inferior tools to appease a customer who doesn't care anyhow. I know people advertise soft washing,.but the customer has no idea of the tools used to achieve,..and they likely don't even care about the term soft wash,...people on this forum care more about it than the general public.
Down streaming is not just faster in application and rinsing,..but it's also easier when utilized to it's fullest. A single man operation can change from soap to water without moving your feet. High GPM machines,....especially during breezy conditions has some nice breeze busting power,..8-10 GPM @600 PSI and takes away alot of ladder work.
I've mentioned it in the past,.and some may do it and some may not,....but if you want to build a clientele,..and set yourself apart,..using inferior,..inefficient methods isn't the way to do it.
*I never said the ultra soft wash methods are a gimmick,...because by default "gimmicks" typically don't work,.I never said using these low PSI pumps doesn't work. They work well at achieving the same results.
You may prefer to use the 12V and don't mind the downfalls,..that is your business.
Jeff
I thought it was head screws when we spoke but as Art said, I've had them backing out but never break. PWMall put in a warranty request for me last year and told me to return the pump but if it had bleach in it they wouldn't replace it. As I was "repairing" the pump for return a new one showed up. I never returned it and was never asked to again.
Jeff
So how did you make out with the pump Bryan. Did they replace it?